Discussion in 'PCT / Steroid Cessation' started by SwolenONE, May 15, 2015.

  1. SwolenONE

    SwolenONE Active Member Staff Member

    I know a lot of people like to cut corners to save money during their cycles, or they dont feel that the absolute best protocol is necessary. The fact of the matter is that your endocrine system is something you do not want to mess up. With that in mind, here is the most comprehensive, and more importantly, scientifically validated PCT program available:

  2. GymHero

    GymHero New Member

    First read of this in the ANABOLICS book, and have been using it successfully between cycles ever since!
  3. QuadsOfSteel

    QuadsOfSteel New Member

    Days 1-16 for HCG, does that mean right when stop the injectables or after they have cleared (mostly cleared out)
  4. Rene Custals MD

    Rene Custals MD New Member

    I used to recommend this PCT to everyone but I started analyzing HCG´s role. HCG acts like LH to stimulate testosterone production by the testes. This in turn causes the HPTA to remain shut. So why exactly do we use it?, couldn´t we get a better or the same effect without it?
  5. kissdadookie

    kissdadookie Member

    Mike Arnold has an interesting approach to hCG. He suggests to take it on cycle, to help keep the testes stimulated and thus hopefully mitigate some of the testicular atrophy. Thus in PCT, your testes would hopefully still be functioning to a notable degree thus making recovery easier.

    The idea of hCG in PCT however, is again, to stimulate the testes and help speed up reversing the atrophy one would likely have experienced on cycle.

    If your balls aren't responsive, the PCT wouldn't be effective or effective enough.
    Rene Custals MD likes this.
  6. Rene Custals MD

    Rene Custals MD New Member

    Totally agree on the hCG during, sounds pretty reasonable, although cannot be used for a long time or a high dose because of the fast saturation response it exhibits. As for the PCT, I don´t know if trying to reverse the atrophy at the expense of prolonging the shutdown is really worth it, I mean, not really sure, but my guess would be to leave them to be stimulated by the LH once the Clomid a Tamox start kicking in.

    Has anyone seen any scientific literature on this?

  7. kissdadookie

    kissdadookie Member

    There was a clomid PCT study not too long ago. They did find clomid responders and non-responders. The non-responders typically were lacking testicular function due to atrophy. So going by this, it would seem that your first and foremost goal is to reverse the testicular atrophy (if there is significant atrophy present) in order for your SERMs to work effectively in PCT.

    That's the main reason they use hCG to treat hypogonadism, to kickstart the testes. When the testes are functioning, now the SERMs can do their work and effectively get your body to produce more testosterone, since your main testosterone "factory" is now functioning.
    Rene Custals MD likes this.
  8. Rene Custals MD

    Rene Custals MD New Member

    Really good answer. That sounds pretty logical. Thanks for the info!!
  9. SwolenONE

    SwolenONE Active Member Staff Member

    x2 great info, Ive heard many mixed optinions of HCG during pct.
  10. kissdadookie

    kissdadookie Member

    Yeah, if your boys have atrophied to a significant degree, they might not come back all that easily even with the use of hCG, thus it makes more sense to try to prevent them from atrophying in the first place in which on-cycle hCG can help accomplish.

    GEORGE TOULIATOS Active Member

    Τοο much of β-HCG will have a negative impact on Sertoli and Leydig cells receptors.A moderate dose of 1,500 iu every 72 hrs would be more appropriate.I separate the Post Cycle Therapy,into two different parts.The first two weeks i will aply intramuscularly chorionic gonadotropin ,every three days.Afterwords,the folloing two weeks i will use SERM's per oss,tamoxifen and clomiphene.
    Considering the fact that β-HCG is gonadotropin itself,it is obvious that GnRH from hypothalamus will be inhibited (GnRIH).On the contrary,SERMS's do stimulate the production of GnRH from hypothalamus,since they are anti-estrogenic agents.As a result,we get to the assumption that those compounds should not be used simultaneously.Therefore,we begin with the injectable part in first place (β-HCG) and then we follow with the oral part of SERM's.Pregnyl will cause increase of LH & FSH from hypophysis and endogenous testosterone production,along with spermatogenesis will start. Nolvadex and clomid will act in a similar way too and they will lower estrogens as well,sending a signal to hypothalamus for GnRH release.
    During the first week of the SERM's use,i reccomend 100mg of clomiphene citrate before bed and 20mg of tamoxifen same time as well.The next week i will reduce the dosing to half of it,meaning 50mg of clomid & 10mg of nolvadex.Concerning the first part of the injectable β-HCG,i stick to the same dosage,therefore 1,500 iu x3 times per week,which is totaly 9,000 iu of Pregnyl.
    O.D of Pregnyl (5,000 iu) was manufactured in order to treat the medical case of crypto-orchidism.That particular symptom involves boys before entering their puberty.Testicles are imature and they do not descend through the inguinal canal.As a result,the scrotum if free from the two testicles.However,this might become a critical situation,since the high temperature withing the pelvic cavity can contribute to sterilisation of the sertoli cells.5,000 iu of β-HCG will eventualy provide that shocking therapy in order for the imature testicles to proceed through the inguinal canal,into the scrotum.
  12. i i can write my modest opinion:
    i have been customer of the Dr. M.Scally to have a proper pct for my first cycle some years agò and to learn how this protocl work.
    I read a lot of different interpretation of this protocol in the web...
    A lot of time, also in this forum, i read about the use of hcg during or post or both....
    And i read people who say is a bad idea use hcg after the last shot.
    But WHICH KIND of SHOT ???
    The most important thing is to understand WHEN this hcg is used looking the kind of product used:
    if the aas are ENANTHATE or indecaonate or undecylate... LONG ESTER, that use 7 or more days to reduce of 50% their bloods level, will need 3 or more week before all product leave the blood stream, how can we talk of use hcg POST CYCLE in this specific case,?
    In this specific case we are YET DURING and if we will assume hcg to wake up testes (before wake up the hipofisis some week later) we are assuming hcg DURING and not POST cycle....
    Obviously the timing of the hcg and the serms will be different if are used short ester or oral tabs...
    Is absolutely stupid use hcg post a short ester cycle or post a oral only cycle: in theese specific case would be absolutely better assume hcg only during the cycle and stop it with the last shot or oral tabs.
    Just my modest opinion.
  13. DeathKnight

    DeathKnight New Member

    All the recent studies I did, as well as trial and errors that I experienced myself and others, I conclude that the best use of hCG is during the cycle, throughout all of it, but no more than 8 weeks in a row (depending on the dosage of the cycle itself and frequency of hcg administration).

    Till now I have experienced with hCG post-cycle with very weak results (one time I remained shutdown for months in a row following the pct, had to implement another aggressive PCT to get my testes and libido back, a total of 4 months to get to normal hormonal levels following bloodwork).

    The next method I used successfully was as the one captain arimidex explained above, introducing hCG in the last week of a long estered cycle for a total of 3 weeks at 1500ui twice a wk, immediately followed by a 4 week SERM PCT of clomid+nolva. Had the best recovery using this method.
    For a cycle using short esters and orals I started the hCG in the last 4 weeks of the cycle at 1000ui/week first 2 weeks and 1500ui/week last 2 weeks, immediately followed by a 4 week serm pct 24h after my last oral (winstrol), i've stopped the injectables 3 days before pct.

    There is also a 3rd method, one i've recently studied more upon but haven't actually tried it myself, it's being used with great success by many. It is also promoted by an IFBB pro, mr. olympia competitor that posts anonymous on another forum, it goes like this:
    - 250ui hcg 2x/week for a total of 500ui for the duration of the whole cycle and followed with 4 weeks of serms clomid (50mg) and nolva (20mg)
    - for long estered cycles, he suggested using hcg at that same dosage, twice or 3 times a week depending on the dosages of androgens used for weeks 1-8 (in a 12-weeks cycle) and 10 days after the last shot commence a PCT with hCG 500ui 2x/week for a total 1000ui/wk + clomid (50mg) and nolva (20mg) for a total of 4 weeks all together !
    My question is: what is the reasoning behind this aproach ? While I get the low dosed hcg throughout the cycle to avoid testicular atrophy makes no sense combining it in the PCT with the serms, wouldn't that cause suppression and possibly a negative feedback which will get you shutdown after the pct ? Or at these low dosages and the testes fully recovered it wouldn't matter ?
    I want to try it when i start cycling again, asking for your opinions on this, how is this superior to my 2nd choice ive written above ?

    Thanks in advance !
  14. kissdadookie

    kissdadookie Member

    That does sound odd to go more aggressively with the hCG in PCT relative to the dosage used on cycle. If your boys did not atrophy then you really shouldn't need the hCG in PCT really. Using hCG on cycle of course is to prevent testicular atrophy and using hCG in PCT is to help reverse testicular atrophy (assuming one didn't prevent it on cycle).

    GEORGE TOULIATOS Active Member

  16. DeathKnight

    DeathKnight New Member

    While I do understand how the HPTA works i'm interested in the different approaches in PCT.
    From what I've gathered until now, it makes sense HCG is best used throughout the cycle at a very small dosage (500ui/week) to prevent testicular atrophy and make recovery fast and easy. The PCT itself should be a combination of SERMS and aromatase inhibitors, perfectly timed in order to prevent a rebound in estrogen, and that is the tricky part.

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